i wish i could have sent you a food basket - in my mind, i certainly did! i'm glad you did get one, even if not delivered personally.

it is certainly good to get Jews together and socialize, but imo not all means are good. i'm probably too conservative, but i'm leery of those events too much geared of getting 'into' each other. but then again, i'm not too comfortable when alone with, or too close to members of the opposite sex unless they are family.

imo, the survival of the jewish people is not assured by simply mating jewish, but by Living Jewish.
but, what do i know?

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I think that in the short-term, looking at secular events whose sole purpose is to bring Jews together may indeed raise questions about whether it is moral to promote a lifestyle that you disapprove of. But that is not necessarily the case if you view it in the long term. Even if two secular Jews "couple" only because of their proximity to each other, remain secular and do not identify with Judaism beyond their identification with each other, their relationship with each other prevents them from possible (even likely) relationships with non Jews. Furthermore, they will produce Jewish children who may later develop strong Jewish identities and make important contributions to Judaism. Finally, I would argue that people who end up dating Jews they meet in such situations have put at least some active thought into choosing to date Jews vs. non Jews, which is one way to instill more robust Jewish identities in people who have had little exposure to Judaism.

By not providing secular Jews with a framework in which to meet each other, you take a completely passive role in assimilation. Moreover, the framework has to attract them, and events that do not appeal to people whose lifestyles you reject passively restrict admission to a small margin of the people you are trying to reach. I would also argue that actively "promoting" a lifestyle you disapprove of is different from putting a bunch of people together who already have their own concepts of appropriate lifestyle choices. People who party on Birthright are probably partying at home, too, and Birthright's purpose is neither to condemn nor support these choices. Would you really create events that are limited in their appeal to secular Jews, at the cost of (a) exposing Jews to their Jewish identity and Israel (b) promoting Jewish marriages and children and (c) possibly even promoting the development of deeper religious commitment to Judaism?

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I think I agree with this.

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I certainly agree with parts of what you're saying in theory. Nonetheless, I think personally promoting an event which is not appropriate to a Torah lifestyle would be hypocritical (for me, or other Torah Jews). I'm not saying that any event aimed at increasing Jewish identification needs to make sure everyone keeps halachah. That's not the issue. But to davka provide a context where the whole point is something which is against halachah, taking advantage of people's more animal instincts to draw them closer to something else entirely? I certainly can't condemn the people promoting these events, especially since they're mostly secular themselves. However, some events like this come from the religious world and in those cases seem sort of sneaky and disingenuous. I think it's better to make events which are fun, and not-so-frum, but without compromising our own religious values. In most places Chabad manages to strike this balance rather well.

Don't get me wrong. As you wrote, any Jew marrying another Jew (as opposed to a gentile) is good. To my mind that is one of the primary purposes of 'kiruv' in this generation. But I believe in an intellectually honest and open discourse, rather than luring people in with lolly-pops of various kinds.

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I'd go even further than Eitan and say that if I were a secular Jew in the US with not much connection to Judaism, I would have no reason at all to date or marry only Jews. Even if I happened to stumble upon a nice Jewish guy and happened to marry him, it would mean nothing to me. If you don't believe that perpetuating the Jewish people is a value, why bother? And as a religious Jew, I'd say why bother trying to keep that person and his/her family Jewish? Let him/her assimilate. In a few generations we'll have fewer Jews, but the ones who remain Jewish will be the ones committed to our cause and destiny. Do we really want to keep the Jewish nation going with the type of people who married Jewish only because they followed an advertisement basically saying "Get laid at your parents' approval!"...?

That said, I do agree that it opens an opportunity to bring them and their families closer to Judaism. The problem is that these programs don't take those opportunities. It can be a hooking-up event that also teaches Jewish values and connection more openly than programs like Birthright, in a way that secular Jews will also be able to connect to. I think people who develop programs like that have little faith in youth. What makes them so sure that the only thing that'll connect those kids to Israel is visiting the cool pubs in Tel Aviv and attending Subliminal concerts? Sure, let them have fun, but let them see more than just that side of Israel. Let them tour the Old City from a religious perspective, visit a choice few Kivrei Tzaddikim like the Rambam or R' Shimon Bar Yochai, bring some talented religious and haredi guys to talk to them and play music for them or something... Just because they love to party doesn't mean they can't be open at all to deeper discussion. I think part of the problem with teens is that society has such little faith in their depth, and caters to them and treats them like shallow party animals who drink and do drugs all day. Of course that's what they're going to be if that's what society tells them they are.

The problem is clearly exemplified in the story Eitan brought from JPost about the University of California and the invitation with the picture of a Hassidic bride and groom, reading "Does this scare you? It scares us!" When someone called them on it, they said, "It's not Orthodox Judaism we're saying is scary, we're saying marriage is scary." Marriage is scary? So a lifestyle involving deep commitment, sacrifice, and compromise is scary? (And you had to choose a picture of a Hassidic bride and groom rather than any other type of couple?) These are the values you're "jokingly" giving over to your audience?

That's what I see as the problem. In the above case, the end really doesn't justify the means.

~D

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Ok, we've waited long enough. Write something new already!

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